LETTERS - A3

[This was talking about a man with heretical views at one of these folks meetings] He upset everyone, and told us that he and Vance Farrell were great friends. I told him he was setting time and there are no more TIME prophesies and what about the Sunday law and the time of trouble etc. He was very cunning and wouldn't give a straight answer on anything we asked. This is just a warning, he picked up the address of our group off of Gilled Ministries.com.... Blessings　　Br.___　

In reply to this incident that has happened: I do not know if this man is acquainted with Elder Vance but that would not be anything surprising as thousands of folk visit Pilgrims’ Rest and thousands more communicate over the phone and by mail and so on. So that is a very moot point. However—and this is a very important point—Elder Vance takes a VERY STRONG STAND against any type or stripe of timesetting! You can see this by accessing our articles
"No Time for Time Excitement"

"We are Not to Set Time"

http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-T/Time-set.pdf

And "The Danger of Time-Setting".

http://www.sdadefend.com/Defend-foundation/time.htm

He has consistently sounded a warning about this practice that keeps cropping up in SDA circles in many subtle forms.

So of course, we find some folk who jump to conclusions and run on in sparks of their own kindling and say that there is a special message for us in the Apocrypha, while Mrs. White has NEVER said any such thing! What flimsy ropes of evidence some people are willing to trust their salvation to—while piles of evidence to the contrary will fail to move them from their extreme stand.

I have worked side by side, pretty much, with Brother Vance for the last 6 years. He is now elderly and a bit frail, having to take frequent rest periods to keep up and running. This is why he cannot take time to reply to folk who challenge him by letters or publish articles attacking his work or ministry. I do believe however, that most issues have been addressed clearly in articles, booklets or books put out in the last 25 or more years. In doing much of the communications by email, I try to refer folks who have questions to articles addressing the subject they inquire about.

Just because this man spoken of in the above situation claims to know, or actually Does know Brother Ferrell and even drops in to visit from time to time, in NO WAY indicates that his aberrant views are supported by Brother Ferrell! He is working hard to try and publish more SOP and other books in English and Spanish, a line of books for colporteurs to be able to sell to support their families, and articles warning of various false doctrines that threaten God’s people here in the end times.

He has to focus closely on his work, and when someone pops through the door into the office, he will greet them, but does not have time to explore every belief that the person may have before he shakes his hand. Aberrant beliefs are seldom brought up to him by these brief visitors. If they were, Brother Ferrell would likely just refer them to an article, book, and/or the SOP to show where the subject is addressed and quickly return to his work. He never visits with people outside of occasionally his family come to see him for a day or two, and he never socializes to any extent at all, no hobnobbing or chumming around. His whole focus is just keeping up to do the writing work.

I do hope that this information has helped to clarify that although people who hold aberrant or extreme view may claim to know Brother Ferrell, that does not mean he chats with them and supports their views.

Brother _________wrote:

Busy or not , I always have time to answer a question of one of the brethren. Do you believe in both Ezekiel 3: 18,19 ans 5T 211???? This isspmething you should have and answer for I am sure ans am awaiting for sadi. We want to post you answers on our TV show out here on the coast which reaches about a million or more folk....

thankyou.....still waitng for you answer!!!!!!

P G Temple wrote:

Here I am going to answer as honestly as I can to your inquiries. Yes, I sure DO believe in the watchman warning etc. However I do want to point out that both you and I are answerable TO GOD; not to each other. I am not sure what way is best to make my answers separate from the material you have given me, so I will use this blue text. Please be aware though that if it is printed out on a non color printer, it will all be black so I will use headings too. You have stated that you will show on TV the responses made to your inquiry, and I do hope you will follow through with that, even if you do not agree with my reply. I will publish this myself on SDAdefend.com so all can see my original response. I also want to ask that you not hold Brother Vance responsible for my answers as I take full responsibility for them.

Brother ____ wrote:

P G Temple wrote:

In the first item of answers I have sent to you, (above) I did provide an explanation of why Brother Vance does not and cannot reply to lengthy inquiries such as are constantly sent to him by various means. He feels, and rightly so, that the little remaining time he has to work for his dear Savior, needs to be spent in producing materials to carry the last message of hope and warning to the WORLD, not just to SDAs and not just to single individuals who may want to quibble and challenge. I use the name webservant to designate one of the duties I do at Harvestime Books/Pilgrims' Rest Inc. I seldom use my own name as I want not to detract attention from the ministry I have been called to serve.

It has a simple answer--but the answer is also very profound. I will try to answer from the Bible & SOP and explain clearly our stand on this. This has always been my personal stand on it too, since a few years ago I made an indepth personal study on the whole thing.

Christ is our ONLY MASTER. We are individually accountable to Christ. All of us are brethren, standing equally answerable to Christ alone; and while we can help and share with one another; while we can offer individual views that MUST ALL BE TESTED by the INSPIRED WRITINGS; there is NO WHERE in Bible or SOP that we are given the right to dictate or rule another’s conscience !!

Here is Paul’s inspired comment:

Notice here that he, one of the ‘leaders’ in the ‘church’, is saying that he does not have ‘dominion over your faith’. He does not in any way claim to be able to dictate to the individuals what they have to believe—what their ‘faith’ is to be.

Here we have James:

What is a ‘Master’? It is someone who tells you what to do. Yea, it is someone who has the right, or claims the right to tell another what to do. Who ONLY has that right? Only Christ! Notice James’ warning that if we take the position of ‘masters’ we also take the responsibility and this responsibility rightly belongs only to Christ. We take upon ourselves condemnation for stepping in between our brethren and their rightful and only Master, Christ. In so doing, do we not make ourselves an antichrist just as much as the Pope does??

What does Peter tell us?

Here again we are warned not to take the place of ‘lord’ over others. We have only one Lord, that is Jesus Christ. Notice we have one way we can seek to influence, but not command, our brethren—we can seek the Lord with all our heart, put our own lives in order by the Power of the indwelling Christ through the Holy Spirit, weed our own gardens by earnest study AND PRACTICING of the inspired writings, and then by living a holy life, set an example to others of what the Lord Jesus Christ can do for poor, repenting sinners!

What does the SOP through the writings of Ellen G. White, God’s messenger, tell us?

It is clear that dictating our own ideas of right and wrong to our brethren is no man’s right. The matter of whether or not I worship in a particular church, whether I attend any worship or not, is between me and my God. I have a right if I see my brother breaking a clear precept of the Bible to speak to him about it, not with my authority, which is non-existent, but with the authority of inspired truth. BUT after I have presented humbly and clearly the inspired truth to my brother, I have no right to continue to try and brow-beat him or threaten him or coerce him into following what my interpretation of this inspired truth is. And if I don’t have a clear, consistent statement from holy writ backing up my view, how much less do I have the right to try and force my brother to agree with me?

The matter of where one worships is a matter between the soul and its God, not between brethren. I will save the further comments on the same subject for my reply to Brother ________’s article.

　AN OPEN RESPONSE TO "BRINGING IT BACK" BY VANCE FERRELL

　Dear Brother Ferrell: 　

Br. Ferrell you are optimistically convinced that if the SDA church heeds your call for repentance and reformation that it will turn around and fulfill the mission it was given at the time the Advent Movement came into existence. That movement, we know, began in 1844 but the SDA church was not organized until 1863. In fact to underscore the difference between the SDA denomination and the Advent Movement, we read: "The mighty shaking has commenced and will go on, and all will be shaken out who are not willing to take a bold and unyielding stand for the truth and to sacrifice for God and His cause." At first glance this may appear to be referring to being shaken out of the SDA church, but this inspired statement was penned in 1850, 13 years before the SDA church was even organized! Does this not clearly indicate that the Advent Movement and the SDA denomination are two separate and distinct things? But more on this later.

P.G. Temple wrote:

Your hopes to see the apostasy reversed and a reformation turn the denomination around totally ignores the following inspired statements, first we read: "Are we hoping to see the whole church revived? That time will never come." 1SM 122 (1887). And again: "The great apostasy, which is developing and increasing and waxing stronger, . . . will continue to do so until the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout." UL 352. Sadly, I see nothing in these words by the messenger of the Lord herself to give us hope that any efforts at reformation will have even the tiniest measure of success.

I want you to notice this text: 2Ch 30:5 "So they established a decree to make proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beersheba even to Dan, that they should come to keep the passover unto the LORD God of Israel at Jerusalem: for they had not done it of a long time in such sort as it was written."

This was the FINAL invitation sent out to apostate Israel to return to their God. Did it result in stopping the apostasy? NO, it did not. So maybe the invitation should not have been made? That is not how God works at all!

Was this message a total waste of time? No way—we are told that many INDIVIDUALS accepted the invitation and came to the Passover and many of these repented and turned to the true God. In the overthrow of apostate Israel some died as faithful to their God, some joined with Judah to serve God, and some faithful ones were even taken away captive to other nations where God used them to spread the TRUE religion of heaven to the heathen.

You notice that while most texts say from Dan to Beersheba, this one says from Beersheba to Dan. Dan was a tribe that failed to repent and has no place in the New Jerusalem. They were backbiters and accusers of the brethren and they were idolaters.

Beersheba means a well of an covenant, the ‘seven’ or perfect well. This is what the Lord says when He invites us in various places in the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy to "Come partake of the Living Water from the well of Truth". Our ministry is located at Beersheba Springs and I think it has an interesting prophetic thought to it but I do not push this matter to those who may see no light in it.

Br. Ferrell, you also give example after example of how God’s ancient church was rescued from apostasy time after time, but why do you limit those examples to Old Testament times only? What about the apostasy during the time of Christ, which is more applicable to the situation of the SDA church today as we read:　

"Jerusalem is a representation of what the church will be IF it refuses to walk in the light that God has given. Jerusalem was favored of God as the depositary of sacred trusts. But her people perverted the truth and despised all entreaties and warnings...So Christ sorrows and weeps over OUR churches, over OUR institutions of learning, that have failed to meet the demand of God. He comes to investigate in Battle Creek [General Conference headquarters then––today, Silver Spring MD], which has been moving in the same track as Jerusalem" 8T: 67. And so that there be no doubt as to what time period in Jerusalem she is referring to, we read: "The Saviour’s prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible scene was but a faint shadow...As He warned His disciples of Jerusalem’s destruction, by giving them a sign of the approaching ruin that they might make their escape, so He has warned His people of the day of final destruction, and given them signs of its approach, that all who will may FLEE from the wrath to come." SOP IV 37, 38. 　

Why is the setting of these statements of such critical import? Because we read these words regarding Christ’s efforts to bring reformation to Jerusalem in His time: "Jesus wept in anguish over the doomed city, but He could not deliver her. He had exhausted every resource. In rejecting the warnings of God's Spirit, Israel had rejected the only means of help. There was no other power by which they could be delivered." DA 587. And again: "He knew that His efforts to reform a corrupt priesthood would be in vain; nevertheless His work must be done; to an unbelieving people the evidence of His divine mission must be given." DA 590. What was the only solution then, was it repeated and continued calls for reformation? We read: "God could do no more for man through these channels. The whole system must be swept away." DA 36.

We ARE told that IF Jerusalem WOULD have heeded and repented she WOULD have been spared and become the center of the Christian work for the world. Jesus Himself said: Mt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

So did God cease to offer the invitation to return to Him? No! He says: ""Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city."

SO were the warnings and invitations all in vain?? NO WAY! God never has His word return to Him void. Many INDIVIDUALS responded to the invitation though the whole nation did not turn back from apostasy.

Let us not forget that for thousands of years God had dealt mercifully with His people. He even sent His own Son, in the flesh, to try to turn them around. Can there be a greater expression of the love that God had for His chosen nation? But even Christ Himself had to turn away with bitter tears from a people who had rejected every plea, every entreaty. And have you forgotten, Br. Ferrell, that in 1888 God sent two young men to try to turn the church around and prepare a people for His coming? What was the result? The record shows that the leadership rejected those messengers of the Lord, Waggoner and Jones; sent Sr. White off to Australia to blunt her outspoken support of their message, and emphatically rejected the principles of reformation the 1888 message presented by voting the denomination into a hierarchical organization in 1903!

P.G. Temple wrote:

P.G. Temple wrote:

Brother Vance has only one little associate—me, and he does his own writing, I only do some correspondence on email. I read the letter and felt that nothing in it refuted from inspired writings the position of Brother Vance’s article.

Br. Ferrell, you refuse to acknowledge that the corporate, SDA denominational church of today has NOTHING to do with the Advent Movement that God established in 1844. In fact, it has NOTHING to do with the SDA church that was organized in 1863! The Lord’s messenger clearly tells us here that it is a NEW ORGANIZATION…A NEW MOVEMENT, so on what basis do you hold to the conviction that it will heed a call to repent and reform. We are plainly told in the very first sentence that this NEW ORGANIZATION…NEW MOVEMENT is the conception of "the enemy of souls." God is removed––He is not there! A hierarchy puts man in the place where God should be, and that’s what this NEW ORGANIZATION…NEW MOVEMENT has succeeded in doing. I ask you Br. Ferrell, why do you refuse to acknowledge the fulfillment of this inspired passage? But let us go on.

P.G. Temple wrote:

Statement Number Two: "Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God [the 7 last plagues]. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus "Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together." 5T:211.

　P.G. Temple wrote:

This warning does Not only apply to SDA- but to all apostate Christendom and according to the amount of light rejected or ignored comes the retribution. I truly feel that those who use these references to tell others either to come out or stay in a denomination do greatly err as they have nothing to do with any denomination but only to those who either are obeying or disobeying the Law of God. And Brethren, mercy still lingers and the plagues are not yet falling. The invitations to return to our merciful Father in Heaven and partake of the grace provided by our Savior are still extended to ALL PEOPLE.

I call on you Br. Ferrell, with your wide sphere of influence, to stop holding out false hope for the church, and possibly save the souls of many "Men, maidens, and little children" by heeding the inspired admonitions of God, and proclaiming the TRUE 3 angel’s message––the TRUE solution to the apostate, SDA church: "I then saw the third angel. Said my accompanying angel, "Fearful is his word, awful is his mission. He is the angel that is to select the wheat from the tares, and seal or bind the wheat for the heavenly garner." These things should engage the whole mind, the whole attention. Again I was shown the necessity of those who believe we are having the last message of mercy, being separate from those who are daily receiving or imbibing new error. I saw that neither young nor old should attend the assemblies of those who are in error and darkness." MR 5:425.

　P.G. Temple wrote:

There are others who like you Br. Ferrell are giving a similar message; such men as the Standish brothers, Jan Marcussen and Ron Spears. On the face of it you appear to be sincerely concerned for the church, but when you continue to blatantly disregard the facts, the warnings, the history, the inspired statements as have been presented here, then one can only come to the conclusion that you men are in essence saying: "Don’t separate as God tells you to do, just stay with the ship, ‘cause WE can turn it around. We can bring it back!" 　

Is this making of none effect the testimony of Jesus indicative of how you religious leaders truly regard God’s inspired counsel? And in your misdirected, irrational love and esteem for the apostate, corporate SDA church, is it a defiant arrogance that leads you to believe that you can accomplish what Christ Himself was not able to do? Sadly, the evidence seems to allow no other conclusion.

　P.G. Temple wrote:

I don’t see any of those watchmen you name as saying to anyone not to leave their local church IF God is truly impressing them to do so. Neither do they take the reigns out of Christ’s hands and tell those who are truly impressed by God through their own study that they are to remain in any individual church group. As I said before—they have no right to do this even IF they would depart so far from the Lord as to try to do it!

My time IS very limited and I am answering this issue once and will not reply further—just so you know there is no use to try and make a forum out of this. Just a few brief comments further:

In the time of Jeremiah, Israel was in apostasy big time—yes! We all agree on that! But NOWHERE do the prophets ever tell us that Israel had BECOME BABYLON!! Israel was Israel and though apostate—she never BECAME Babylon. She was led into Babylon and even enslaved by her but never BECAME her.

In the time of Christ Judah was in apostasy big time—yes! We all agree on that! But NOWHERE do the apostles or Jesus tell us that she had BECOME ROME! She was enslaved by Rome and later destroyed by Rome but never did she BECOME ROME!

So now, the denomination is in apostasy big time—yes! We all agree on that! But NOWHERE do the SOP writings tell us it will BECOME Babylon!! What are the earmarks of Babylon? Here it is, not my words but from inspiration:

There it is the 2 earmarks of Babylon--exalting the Sunday; notice not just maybe infringing onto it but EXALTING it and the preaching of the immortality of the soul. That means the eternal ever burning Hell and all that bunk. I have never heard reported or in person a minister or leader of our church officially preaching that the dead are in heaven or screaming in hell right now. And even if the day comes when this happens, will she then BE BABYLON? NO- she would be a sister to Babylon, she cannot BE BABYLON anymore than Israel was Babylon or Judah was Rome or I am Clarence Settle.

SO it is important for all of us as individuals to search the inspired writings for our individual selves and pray earnestly for God’s guidance in bringing our individual lives under His control. Here are they that KEEP the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus! Each one of us must seek the LORD personally to be told our duty and He will tell it to us. He will not tell me your duty and He will not tell you my duty. It is up to each one of us to earnestly seek to know where God wants us to be, whether in a group or out of a group, at all times and NEVER should anyone seek to take their own ideas of duty and impose them on others.

Never either should anyone take upon himself to declare what God Himself has reserved unto Himself, that probation is NOW closed for any group or person. It IS not! The door of mercy is open and just as in the past; God’s pleading for individuals and groups to turn to Him is still going on. It will end someday, maybe soon, but it is still going on now.

What IS the end time issue? It is the SABBATH TRUTH! When the crisis comes all the Sabbath keepers will cease their infighting and stand for the Sabbath and present a united front against the enemy. In the mean time, we need to be mighty careful that we DON’T use the last hours of or preparation time to tell our brethren how they should be serving God when we ourselves need to find out for ourselves how we need to serve Him and take hold of His grace and get the weeds out of our own characters! The last message to the world IS a message of warning yes, but it is a message of compassionate love from a loving Heavenly Father. It does not represent Him when we are denunciatory and harsh and dump on all who differ from our interpretations.

Notice this measuring rod:

　"As in the days of Noah and Lot, there must be a marked separation from sin AND sinners. There was a coming out, a DECIDED separation from the wicked, an escape for life. So it was in the days of Noah, so with Lot; so with the disciples prior to the destruction of Jerusalem; and so it will be in the last days…As in the days of Noah and Lot, there must be a marked separation from sin AND sinners." PP 166, 167.

　P.G. Temple wrote:

Yes, but Jesus worked for sinners and even ate with them, to minister to their souls!